Ted Schaefer is a New York-based filmmaker. His directorial debut and the feature of our interview is Giving Birth to a Butterfly, follows a woman who after having her identity stolen, connects with her son’s pregnant girlfriend as they bond together on a surreal journey and attempt to track down the perpetrators. The film was accepted to the Champs-Élysées film festival’s U.S. in Progress and premiered at the 25th Fantasia International Film Festival 2021. Through his work at Dweck Productions, Ted executive produced We’re All Going to the World’s Fair, which premiered at Sundance 2021 and currently has a film he produced, The Adults, screening at Tribeca 2023 after its Berlin premiere.
In this interview we discuss how he brought to life the sublime audiovisual landscape of Giving Birth To a Butterfly and his collaboration with co-writer Patrick Lawler.

It’s not specifically just about one person trying to discover their identity and splitting, it’s about a lot of other things. It’s about that specific person dealing with a very specific issue in life, but because of the way the characters around her are shaped, we’re hoping it builds to a larger idea of identity. Identity, especially of late, in culture, has become a really big talking point. And people really think about what does identity mean, how do you signify your own identity, and that’s a complicated question on an individual level that is interesting for us.

Read my full interview with Ted Schaefer below.

Listen to the interview here.

Danny Jarabek: Hi, this is Danny Jarabek, here with The Rolling Tape podcast, and I’m very excited to have on the show Ted Schaefer, the director and co-writer of Giving Birth to a Butterfly. Ted, thank you so much for joining me. I am very excited to hear from your perspective. I just spoke with Patrick, your co-writer. I am also excited to hear from you a little bit more about this movie, so thank you for joining me.

Ted Schaefer: Yeah! Thank you so much for having me.

DJ: So, of course, you’re the director and co-writer here, and I heard a little bit from Patrick about how the script came to be, which is a super fascinating story, and your collaboration is really dynamic, and he spoke to it in a very eloquent way. I’d love to hear from you what that collaboration is like with Patrick. And I know you’ve worked on a few different things, but this was your first major feature. So, how did that come to be and what was the process like for you?

TS: Yeah. We’ve been writing together now for about 10 years. And somewhere along the way, it feels like we’ve just kind of melded brains. So, it’s become a really organic process and really fun. For this one, we had written a couple features before, including the first thing. How Patrick and I met was writing a film about his life. But this, we wanted to come up with something that felt a little more shootable, which, it turns out, we’re not incredibly good at writing to budget, but we were able to find a way to get it made. And this was a small seed of an idea I had been carrying around for a while when I had graduated college and sort of been following a scam, a secret shopper scam, where they mailed me a check and I Google searched the return address, and it was a house in Kentucky. So, that I gave to Patrick years later, and we started to talk about different ideas, and he was doing this presentation on a poet, Mina Loy, and that influenced a lot. We started talking about identity and losing one’s identity and not having one’s identity and the ways we shift our roles. So, that was the start. We often start with a very simple idea and then one of us or both of us together string it out.

DJ: Yeah, that’s really cool to hear. And I love the development of your collaboration and ultimately going towards this film. But from your perspective, too, as well, I know you’ve done some shorts, some music videos, you’ve executive produced films as well. We’re All Going to the World’s Fair is one that I saw back when it was in its festival run. What was the experience for you building up toward eventually directing your own feature with this debut?

TS: I mean, I think it was good. I think I had no choice but to work for a long time in the industry doing various different things just to make a living. I started in grip and electric and then I moved into assistant directing for a long time before producing and executive producing. And that taught me a ton, both from a crew’s perspective and understanding the best ways to run a set and to create an environment where people feel comfortable and want to be collaborative but also watching filmmakers who are either really talented or not as talented. It teaches you a lot. You watch a lot when you’re around that a lot. You kind of pick up things. What happens if you do something wrong. You get to learn through other people’s mistakes. You also get to see other people’s successes. That also just helped build a community of other crew members that I had known for years that were able to make this film possible just through our friendships over the last decade or so.

DJ: Yeah, absolutely. And so, talking a little bit about Giving Birth to a Butterfly specifically, when I spoke to Patrick, we talked about a lot of these bigger ideas that are really embedded into the script, ideas about identity, both as a plot point but also just as a more larger compelling sense of what that means. So, what were some things you were trying to hope to convey with this film? What sense were you trying to instill in the audience? There’s a sense of existential dread and there’s some anxiety involved, so what was that all like for you and what you were envisioning?

TS: It’s a bit of a rollercoaster, and I think we were hoping that the audience goes on a similar route to Diana where there’s a lot of hectic energy that becomes a little more meditative and then becomes something else that is open to the audience’s interpretation. The idea is there’s a lot of ideas and themes that we’re talking about, but there’s not one clear interpretation of this film. It’s not specifically just about one person trying to discover their identity and splitting, it’s about a lot of other things. It’s about that specific person dealing with a very specific issue in life, but because of the way the characters around her are shaped, we’re hoping it builds to a larger idea of identity. Identity, especially of late, in culture, has become a really big talking point. And people really think about what does identity mean, how do you signify your own identity, and that’s a complicated question on an individual level that is interesting for us.

DJ: Yeah, 100%. And I certainly felt that sense of a rollercoaster that you were describing with the journey of the character, too. How did you build – I’m curious to get this from your perspective – the aesthetic language and how to represent the script visually because there’s a very strong stylistic sensibility to the film. I believe shot on 16mm.

TS: Mm-hmm.

DJ: The 4:3 aspect ratio. There’s a lot of stylistic decisions involved here. How did you go about building that visual landscape?

TS: I mean, I like to be overly intentional, usually, so I work really collaboratively with my production designer, my costume designer, hair and makeup, cinematographer, the lighting designer, the whole team, to really fine tune things. I think Matt Clegg, who shot the film, and our gaffer and I started watching movies a year and a half before we made this. We were talking very early on. One thing you learn from being an assistant director is the more prepared you are, the better. There’s a fine line we were trying to walk where because the film does a lot of things that breaks your reality, it’s very presentational, so as an audience, you know you’re not watching a film, but because of that, it sort of disarms you and hopefully it allows the subconscious to activate because you’re no longer trying to find these little bits of reality. Creating a language visually that accentuated that was really important and finding ways for the way the film looked to always feel like you were in this dreamy, memory-esque place that you know wasn’t real life but maybe there was something true in it anyway.

DJ: What were those conversations you had with some of your crew? You mentioned the production designer and the costume designer. What were some of the ideas that were floating around in the early stages that eventually started to come to fruition in the film?

TS: There was a lot of talk about color. We talked a lot about color. And I have a good friend who is a textile designer who has all these old Pantone boxes. We built the color scheme of this pretty early on before we brought in another team and then used that as a template to start talking to the rest of the design team. And seeing how that evolves throughout the film, things are very earthy toned and somewhat monochromatic until we get to the Nina’s where it becomes a little more lush. There’s no green. That was something that our production designer was making fun of me for. She wasn’t allowed to use green in anything until we got to the Nina’s. And there were little things like that we were trying to find how can we create these little magical moments or little clues to what’s happening in the film. That’s something we did a lot with lighting where it was a really fun time just finding these ways to insert, in the background, these little magical moments of light, which aren’t unreal. That can really happen, there are prisms that exist in natural life. But finding ways to really use that and use color to create a warm sense. It can feel like it’s heading towards a horror film, and I think making sure there’s something you’re subconsciously thinking, “There’s something about it that doesn’t feel like it’ll be horror. It’s warmer than that.” So, when you get to the twist, you’re maybe a little creeped out, but you’re not scared. You’re like, “No, I don’t think this movie’s going to try and scare me.”

DJ: Yeah. And something else that I think really compounds all of those feelings is, of course, the performances at the center of all of this. I feel like this script requires a lot of its performers, too, because it’s operating in such a register that is very difficult to achieve because it’s not quite like how you talk on a day-to-day basis—

TS: Yeah.

DJ: …but there’s so much nuance and a lot of layers into how these performances come across. So, what was your casting process like? And how did you go about finding the right fits for these very unique characters who are exploring this very big idea of identity?

TS: We had a great casting director, Kate Geller. And pretty early on, she said, “Go to theater actors. They’re going to get it. They’re going to be able to tap into this very specific tone and they’re going to be really excited by the challenge.” So, we did, and we didn’t do any auditions. Really what it was was just meeting people and talking. I know when Annie [Parisse] and I met, it was like an hour-and-a-half coffee. We immediately understood each other, had very similar references, were talking about very similar things. So, it was like, oh, she totally gets it, I understand. It was sort of like a personality match. It was like, if I know this person, feels like somebody I could hang out with but also has similar ideas about what the movie is about to them without me having to explain it, because that’s a hard thing. You don’t want to explain it to an actor and try to illicit a performance out of them for something like this. If they can’t quite get it out of the gate, it’s going to be really challenging. So, it was a lot of meetings, and then it kind of became organic. Once we had Annie, we had the idea of Paul [Sparks], who plays Daryl, who is her real-life partner, and they were like, “That’s such a fun idea. Why not?” And when we cast Gus [Birney], who plays Marlene – who I’m still blown away by, I just think is insanely talented and she’s so young, she’s on Broadway now but I think is going to have a huge career – she was like, “You should cast my mom.” So, we met with her mom and was like, yeah, she’s perfect. I couldn’t imagine anybody else doing that now. It was this really fun, organic process, but it was really just when we sit and talk about this, if people were asking a lot of questions and trying to understand what the intention was, sometimes it would be a clue that it was like, oh, I don’t think they’re quite understanding. If you can’t quite pick up from the text what’s happening, it’s going to be really hard to communicate that. And then we had, like, a week of rehearsals, which allowed us to really finetune everything, which was hugely, hugely important.

DJ: One sequence, in terms of performance, that I definitely want to ask you a little bit more about, is that finale with Connie Shulman. That grand monologue that she delivers in that theater space. The whole movie, we’re living in this world where she thinks everything is theater, and then she’s on the theater and she delivers this grandiose performance. So, how did that come to be? What was it like directing that scene and that sequence?

TS: Connie Shulman, she’s so incredible. And I think part of it was it’s important … I mean, a lot of the movie’s about performance in various forms, so ending with this performance that, hopefully, the audience doesn’t buy her fully as a sympathetic character until the scene before that when you see her with Drew. And then with that scene, we wanted to kind of give her what she wanted. She gets her performance, but also, the stage starts to react to her. The lighting changes. So, it really does, hopefully, crack that world open a little bit because once you get to the Nina’s house, the world is changed. The world is cracked open, you’re entering a different space, so allowing that character to not just be a caricature and not just be this Norma Desmond character. It was like, what if we elevate that? What if we let her have what she wants. At first, it seems insane, and then by the end of it, you’re like, “I’m actually kind of on the same page as her. I think she’s great and she’s sad,” and it’s really fantastic. And directing it was so fun. That was her first day on set. I’ll never forget. We were talking through certain intentions of that scene after a take and Connie just looked at me and went, “Wow! You really are a director.” And I will never forget that for the rest of my life. That was like, oh, wow. That’s all I need.

DJ: I love that. And I went through that same process. I was like, “This is a whole Norma situation.”

TS: Yeah.

DJ: And then it happened, and I was like, “Yeah! I buy it! I’m with you.” So, I love hearing that from you. One last thing I want to ask you about that I really, really loved, and adding to the atmosphere of this whole movie, is the score. How did you build that? What was the vision for that? And how did you work with your composer to really elevate all these other qualities that we’ve talked about through this score as well.

TS: That was the hardest part, maybe. We found Meade Bernard through our cinematographer, Matt Clegg, and Meade also completely got it and had all these incredible ideas. But I had had a really clear idea of what I thought the score should be that, after we shot it, was wrong. It was totally wrong. So, it was a really fun thing to have to work through with somebody who was so great. And he had all these ideas of bringing in sounds throughout the film that could also act as foreshadow. You have the sounds of the Nina’s early on. You have the train whistle that’s carrying us through because that is a really important motif. And finding those pieces to build a score around, it was just such a fun experience. Figuring out how to have the score just a little at the beginning and slowly come out just as the film slowly morphs into something a little different.

DJ: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for your time.

TS: Yeah!

DJ: Really appreciated getting to hear a little bit more behind the scenes of this film. It’s something I’m still thinking about, and it’s just kind of simmering in my brain. I absolutely want to revisit it after having these conversations, so thank you so much for your time. I believe you are executive producing another film that is premiering at Tribeca, I want to say.

TS: Yes, yes. It’s a film I produced with my production company, Dweck Productions, that I work with. It’s called The Adults, and it actually premiered at Berlin and now it’s having its American premiere at Tribeca, directed by Dustin Guy Defa and starring Michael Cera. It’s very, very exciting. I love the movie, so definitely something people should check out.

DJ: Yeah, absolutely. Well, best of luck with everything in the future. Thank you so much for chatting with me, and I really appreciated getting an opportunity to see this film and see this collaboration that you’ve built with Patrick, which is yielding some pretty beautiful artistic results, I think. So, thank you.

TS: Yeah! Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Transcription by Tova Benson-Tilsen, Transcriber/Proofreader (tictactova@gmail.com)